Would like information on Hypothyroidism and children with Down Syndrome. Has anyone used alternative therapies to treat this? If your child has been affected, did he,or she become aggressive due to the low functioning thyroid?

Hello,we have ds boy he`s name is Niklas and he is 6 years old.Niklas goes "prepare"school and he start the school 8/1998.we live in finland.we are interesting to heard your comments to the "prepare"school in yours country.sorry this writing i use little english.greetings for all.

I have a 6 year old daughter with DS. New to the board, would love to talk to anyone! I am sending my daughter to public school next year....scared to death.

I would also like to arrainge a chat with someone experiencing the same withtheir child. My wife and I are eagerly looking for correspondence.

Melissa, Thanks for your suggestion. We are having Kara's hearing tested in Feb. You may be on to something here. We'll let you know how it turns out. I will also ask the doctor about the possibility of the hearing aid, pending the test results. Hope to hear from you again :)

To Marco, Yo he visto sus comentarios en el chat y quieria decir que mi esposo y yo hablamos espanol y tenemos un hijo con sindrome de down. El se llama Peter y tiene 2 anos. Si quiere ud. hablar con nosotros por favor mandarnos un e-mail. Queremos ayudarles con sus preguntas y necesidad para mas informacion. Buena suerte, Tonya Y Pedro Luna

TO MIKE, FATHER OF KARA: I have a 9 year old son with DS. Hearing aids have made a huge difference in my son's speech, even though he is only mildly hearing impaired, almost borderline normal hearing. We used to have hearing aids made by Phonak, that made him regress socially, they were so strong and overwhelming. We finally forked out some extra money for more sophisticated aids made by "Resound" ... it was INCREDIBLE the change in his speech and social interaction. Instead of climbing under a table to escape noisy (playful) situations, He began to join in.. and talk more normally to other kids. I know they say that no hearing aid can "block out' background noise.. but these Resound hearing aids are sure doing something right! Have you had Kara's hearing tested? the hearing aids seem to help his clarity of speech so much. If they are hearing it garbled.. of course, they will speak it that way too, right? Just wondering if you've considered that.. even if it doesn't seem likely.. even a slight loss , it seems to me, would effect speech quality.

TO MIKE, FATHER OF KARA:

I wish I had time to write more.. but quickly.. here is some info to help you figure out the chatroom quirks http://www.unomas21.com/faq4.htm and I also wanted to mention that there are some pictures now on the BumperStickers for Bradley page. I accidently deleted the links to this fundraiser page... Also, I'll update you soon on the availability of shirts in colors for toddlers (it's more complicated than I expected!) I've found I have two xsmall youth shirts (size 2-4) left.. I thought I was completely sold out.

Is it just me or is everybody getting a blank screen from time to time in the chat room? Tips would be welcome!!

Mary, Thyroid function is an area that we all should concern ourselves with. Screening is recommended on a yearly basis monitoring TSH and T4 levels. Since thyroid hormones affect every cell in our body, an overactive or underactive thyroid can produce a very wide variety of symptoms which are hard to detect in individuals with DS. Some symptoms of hypothtroidism (underactive thyroid) are feeling cold, flaky, itchy, pale skin, puffiness of hands and face - especially of the eyelids and under the eyes, brittle nails that split, dry scalp, constipation, feeling of being bloated, hoarse voice, slurred speech, confusion, "foggy" feeling, depression, sad, cry for no reason, muscle cramps, lose your balance, and sluggish tendon reflex. So, you see, alot of these conditions are sometimes associated with DS anyway. I take my son to a lab for TSH and T4 screenings every year in February, just before his annual medical checkup, so the Ped. can review his levels. Better safe than sorry. I believe all newborns are screened at birth. These symptoms are extreme. Thyroid dysfunction can cause cognitive problems and none of us that! Right?

This little verse was given to me 27 years ago (when my son was born)
Oh, Please, turn not your face or hide me in the dark,
Shed not a silent tear or lower your head in shame,
I am flesh and blood with heart and soul
I need your love and understanding too,
Accept me as HE put me here,
A child to love,
NO MORE, NO LESS..........
27 years ago I promised myself that I would share this little verse with everyone that I could. I think that this is an appropriate forum..............

I hope this doesn't sound stupid, but should all DS children get their thyroid checked out at a certain age. Are there any symptoms that I should be looking for?

Hello everyone, I am interested in talking to anybody who has a DS brother or sister. I would like thier views on what it was like growing up with thier brother or sister and perhaps compare our stories. bye for now. Reid

I am very interested to know if anyone has a adult down syndrome person that is suffering with Colitis. This problem is really ruining my son's otherwise good life. Thanks for any information you can send my way.

Donna, the chat room does have a lot of quirks. Here is a FAQ page about the chatroom... and some solutions to a few of the problems http://www.unomas21.com/faq4.htm You might find it helpful.

Hello everyone. I am a new "chatter". I have a 26 year old DS son. He does very well and is a real joy to my husband and myself. He has had to put up with "Colitis" for the past four years. Sulfasalazine had not improved his condition at all. It is very annoying to have this condition and at the present time he is reluctant to even leave the house as he is so stressed out about "what might happen". Has anyone had any experience with this condition as it relates to their down syndromp adult child. Thank You.

I have tried to "chat" a couple of times. I am convienced that I must be doing something wrong. I feel that this would be a good way to find out if others have the same problems that I have.........

Hi Melissa, I don't know much about hypothyroidism but I will share my experience with you on the subject. When my son was about a year old, I took him to a Down Syndrome "clinic" that tested him on all aspects of his health and development. I don't feel comfortable naming the clinic, because I don't want berate it. But I'll tell you this: they told me that my son had a thyroid problem and prescribed medication for it. I was scared to give it to him, along with all the mega-doses of vitamins they also prescribed. I took my son to a well known, highly respected doctor at Children's Hospital. He did not bad mouth the vitamin therapy.. he didn't think it would hurt my child, but he didn't have much confidence that it would help either. But the thing that really shook me up, was that the thyroid prescription I had filled but not yet given to my son, until I got a second opinion, would have been a life long thing. Once you start give the medication, the thyroid shuts down and the body relies on the pills.. (as I understand it).. I had his thyroid retested at Children's Hospital to be sure before I took such a drastic step. His levels came back normal!!! If I had given the prescription to my baby, he would have been taking the pills for the rest of his life. He has been retested many times since.. both numbers have always come back normal. I guess my advice to you, is to be sure and get a second opinion. If anyone has info to contrary.. about needing to take those meds forever.. please correct me, but it seemed like a really serious mistake for that clinic to make. It seemed reckless to me. I felt mislead.

I took my son Ryan to the doctors last friday for his hearing exam that went GREAT!! I was also having his Thyroid checked well I got the results today the doctor calls and tells me he is heading toward hypothyriodism and in 3 months they will check it again and see if its time to start hormone replacement .I am really scared I know nothing about hypothyroidism if anyone knows anything about it please email me.Ryan's Mom Melissa

MELINDASorry it has taken so long to reply. I can give you a LOT of info on TNI sites. Please e-mail me privately and I will give you MORE than you want! It wasn't tough for me to make the decision once O learned the benefits for my little Melina. I took all the info I could find, read it, and talked to many people first...then I felt VERY comfortable with the supplements. PLEASE e-mail me and we'll talk...and that goes for anyone else interested in this subject.Have a good day!

Hello I just found this room. I am the parent of a 12yr.old son with ds,that was diagnosed with leukemia 9 month's ago. Would love to chat with other parents.If you are intrested please email me.

Hello everyone :) I am the proud father of a 7 yr old girl who seems to be having trouble with speech and school in general. Anyone who can lend a helping hand would be greatly appreciated. My wife and I have gone to great lengths with the school and they in return are somewhat recptive to any ideas to help Kara out. E mail us with any suggestions or any chat forum you know of.Best wishes to all :) Mike and Sherry

For Mary & Bill-My goodness! I can't believe (or I don't want to believe) that this kind of treatment still goes on in this world! How awful for you. We have been very lucky to found a pediatrician here in the US for our son who is an excellent doctor. All those things they told you are incorrect. People with down syndrome did have a shorter life span in the past, but it was due to imcompetent doctor care, which your son seems to have gotten. I do hope you do all you can to pursue this legally....it would give the other doctors something to think about before discriminating against someone else. I hope you will keep us updated with what happens, and best of luck to your family.

hi,our names are bill mary we are new to this site our son spencer is ds he is 25 and suffers with serious congenital heart disease wich has progressed into eisenmengers complex ,due to neglect and discrimination by certain doctors in our city of oxford u.k. spencer was not expected to survive this illness after the age of 9 years old.We believe our love for spencer has kept him fighting for his life wich he loves dearly.Our local medical proffesion ,seem to think that because spencer is ds he is not worthy of treatment and a waist of ther time .We love spencer dearly ,and spencer loves us and his life, he trusts us completly.we have all been treated so badly by some local doctors,that we have had to seek legal advise ,we wish we could tell you all in detail but it would take to long,one day we will.This is some of the doctorsfilthy remarks.And i quote,cant you see hes a young man in an old mans body, why dont you just let him go?die,dont you think youv had him long enuogh, dont you know downs die early? havent you tow got a life to get on with? with out him (spencer)? we may put him with the geriatrics, dont you want to save a trip to the hospital,we can come round and give him something and make him confertable at the end?ect ect ect.The D.S ASS advised us on a lawer,now we are in the prosses, off taking legal action against the oxford health authorety.It will be the first of its kind to be done in England for DS.The ds a.s.s asked us to do a T.V program about discrimination agaist ds wich we did.the program should go out on channel 4 on national British TV some time in late february early march.This is not just happening to spencer but to many many others.This is just the tip of the iceburg,it is becomeing widespread in the UK.all our love Mary Bill Spencer.All replys welcome.

im new to this site how long does it take to get a reply fromemail ive left a few messages and am wondering how and whan i can talk to people either in the chat room or by emailthank you for the time .Melissa DuPont...

Welcome Back Michelle ! Maybe I will catch you in the chat sometime!Melissa, Ryan's Mom

Hi! I just returned from vacation and want to apologize for the problems you've had with the chatroom (and maybe this page too). I thought I could work on the site while out of town, but I had problems connecting. Usually I "purge" the dialog in the chatroom every few days...if it gets too long, it doesn't work well on some computers. The same goes for this page (that's why I need to "archive" past posts). Thank you for letting me know about the offensive comments in the chatroom. I felt really bad that I wasn't here to be aware of that and clear it out quickly. Please email if you ever see something insensitive showing up in any discussion board. It just takes me a minute to delete it.

On a happier note: I was so excited to come home and find so much activity and new people on the site! Thanks for your participation. Hopefully, now that I'm home and online again, you will have better luck with the chatroom. Toyna, I'm praying you son gets better very soon.

Does anyone out there have a daughter, aged 12-14 who might be interested in becoming an E -mail pal to my daughter? My daughter is a young lady with DS who loves the Spice Girls, videos, Mary-Kate and Ashleigh shows, nail polish, long skirts, big chunky shoes, swimming, and still watches Barney. She is also going through a painful time in middle school with few friends. She loves to get on- line, and would love to make a buddy out there.Thanks!

Hi I am a new mommy I tried the chat room it is not working Melissa has a chat on Ryan's homepage it is http://members.delphi.com/dilly6/ Just scroll down the board and pus the chat buttn she refered me here she said all yu would answer some of the questions I am having.When the chat room starts working again I'll be back!Connie New Mom to Chase 11-28-98

To Sunny and Drowsy, We were online Friday evening and I started having problems getting my conversation to post. It was going along fine and something happened. Anyway someone asked me if having a Down Syndrome child got easier when they got older and I really wanted to answer that question. I'm sure it wouldn't be the same for everyone, but in my case I can honestly say that I don't really even think about it very much. I think you finally get past the point of worrying so much, I know I have. Also I think as much as you love your children when they are little it weighs heavy on your mind, wondering about the future, health issues, IEPs, etc. In my mind, Drew is Drew. Does that make any sense? Our other children are grown and Drew has pretty much taken over, and I mean that in a good way. He spends time in his room with his Playstation, CD player, & karioke machine and likes to draw, write, and watch movies. (Much like any other 20 year old) He cleans his own room and is wonderful help around the house and willingly on his own helps alot. He is very strong and in the spring and summer helps his Dad with the yard work. They also spend Monday nights watching football and making a mess eating shelled peanuts. He does some cooking,on the grill and in the Microwave, and is very self sufficient in taking care of himself. Most of the time invitations that are extended to my husband and I for social gatherings include him and he goes and enjoys it very much. Quite the social butterfly. I think there has been a higher level of acceptance now that he is older and we have all grown to love Drew for himself more than ever. What I wanted to say was hang in there. I know you feel like it's one problem after another, but it does get better. I had those feelings many times and it seems like I blinked once and Drew had become a wonderful young man that has been a true blessing and much loved member of our family.

HELLO - I have updated Ryan's homepage please visit it and sign his guestbook if you have visited it and could not sign the guestbook I have gotten a new one please sign it for Ryan I print all the messages out and put them in his baby book! Thank you! http://members.delphi.com/dilly6/

To Kristie,I have a four month old child and I am a curious about this nutritional supplement and piracitam, however I am finding it very difficult to get any information on it. My pediatrition and geneticist do not recommend it, and I just want to know for myself... How did you decide?

I read that you are using nutritional interventin with your child. My daughter uses NuTriVene-D and also piracetam. She has been taking it for over 2 years now, and we are extremely happy with it. She is a very healthy child who seldom gets sick...and if she does, she is able to shake it quickly! She has only has a few ear infections, and is very energentic. Sometimes, the rest of the family will catch a 'bug', and she manages to avoid it entirely!

This is to Kim P. at KParrea@aol.com. I tried to email you and it came back. I have my son Zachary on MSBPlus with Piracetam. I would love to give you more information. I order from Nurti Chem Labs in Canada. I love dealing with them. They are very helpful and always willing to help out with any questions. Zachary has done very well since being on them. It has been almost two years. I don't know when I took him to the doctor last for a cold. I can't remember. Anyway would love to talk with you sometime. I will try to email again. Thanks, Susan Queen.

oops one more message, i am looking for gavins mom.... e-mail me.. i have the info your mom wanted but lost your home phone # and will be out of therapy until next week...also give Gavin an extra big hug and kiss for me.. i sure do love him..oh so does amanda...

i just have to post this, i just got done looking at the photo page again and i just want to kiss kiss kiss all those little faces.. they are all soooooo cute..God Bless them all...

For Gina----Was wondering about the diahrea/constipation problem....does you daughter eat alot of dairy foods? My son seems to have alot more problems when he's been drinking more milk, and eating cheese, yogurt and whatnot. Have you already tried to determine if it's something she's been eating? (I suppose you have. :) ) Anyway, I have a really great ped. and would be happy to ask him something for you if you'd like.

Hi, I just learned of this site this week and I am so excited. I have a 3 1/2 year old son, Zachary, he was born 3 mos premature. I have only met a few with a premmie DS child. Zachary had heart surgery to repair a VSD/ASD at 11 months. He has had a lot of medical problems but has done amazing. He is on MSBPlus with Piracetam and I highly reccomend it. His speech has tripled! Is there anyone out there that has had a premmie DS child, or a child with pulmonary hypertension. Also swallowing disorder (using Thick-It). Would love to chat. Zachary was our second child. Tyler is 8, his older brother. Tyler has been a good influence on him. He has learned so much. Zachary started preschool this fall and is learning so much.. Potty Training is next on my list. Any tips? Please email me anyone to talk. I love this site and plan on visiting often. Susan Queen tyzach@bellsouth.net

I tried to post yesterday and it didn't go thru I guess...I am a nurse that works in early intervention and one of my families has a 2 y/o with Down's Syndrome (they have a 4 y/o and a newborn also.) The mother is looking for a book or resource on managing behavior problems...she has heard that there is a recent book on Down's Syndrome and dicipline. Additionally, I would like to locate some information on lung problems in children with Down's Syndrome...this same child has oxygen saturation drops when he is sleeping and has additional trouble when he has a cold. He has been noted to have drops even when well and awake. Thank you in advance for any assistance that you might have to offer. I have a cranky computer and it often throws me off the web so it would be helpful if you could e-mail me.

I have a daughter with DS. She is 3 yrs. I always have had a problem with doctors when it comes to her. She wasn't even diagnosed with DS until she was 3 mos. I knew something was wrong but the doctors kept telling me I was just being a worry wart. Not only did it turn out that she had DS, but and ASD & VSD as well. I dropped those ped. but quick. My new ped. was great in the beg. (with the heart problems) but after her heart problems were taken care of they seem to be laid back. She has gone through a 6 mo. period of diahrea(sp?) and now a 3 mo. period of severe constipation. I keep asking them to help her and they only ask me to change her diet. I have and nothing seems to work. I am currently looking for a new ped. that will be more aggressive with her treatments. If anyone has had these problems or would just like to talk E-mail me or send a followup comment.

Hi,I have a beautiful son that is 4 months old today! His name is Jarett and he is a really happy, healthy baby. What I am looking for is any information out there on "Medic" phsyiotherapy for infants with Down Syndrome. If you have tried it or know anything about, I'd love to hear your thoughts.... Thanks!

Mimi-Thank you so much for all the advice .I was supposed to take Ryan to get his hearing check yesterday but we are currently snowed in so needless to say poor Ryan didn't get it checked:o( I was realy hoping to get that done.I am gone to get it rescheduled ASAP.And I will keep you all updated on his hearing test.PS.Mimi you may e-mail me anytime I woyld love to share e-mail I am sure I could find alot of questions to ask you seeing my little guy just turned two and you have been there before!LOL :O) Ryan's Mommy Melissa

RE: Restless nights! Our daughter has DS. She has restless leg syndrome and sleep apnea. We found this out when we had a sleep study done on her. RLS causes the legs to jerk after falling asleep. It will always wake her out of her sleeep..thus causing her to not get into an deep sleep. Of course that causes her to be extremely tired in the AM hours. I have found that giving her a very warm bath before bed helps relax her legs, and also rubbing her legs right before bedtime helps too. She has had this for many years, so I know how disturbing it can be. Brittany is 14 now. I hardly ever get a complete night's rest because she is so restless. But, both of these things have helped. It's worth a try. Good luck to all of you who have this problem.

Tammy.. ok, just this one last comment and then I'll stop! My 9 yr son also has his moments of extreme stubborness. One suggestion I have may seem overly simplistic. I'm not sure why it works for me. Something about counting to three.. seems to have magical power in motivating my son. I"m not sure what I've ever done when I've gotten past three.. maybe given him a gentle swat or something many moons ago... but slowly and deliberately (almost angrily) counting to three has been an amazing tool for me in getting my son to do as I ask. Here is another tip I've heard that I thought was pretty neat: Purchase a toy or other item that you know your child desperately wants. Really buy it and have the box there for the child to see... (maybe our kids aren't as strong at visualizing a goal in the future).. and then each time she completes a requested task, she can take a sticker and put it on the face of the box. When the picture of the reward is fully covered by stickers... then she gets to have it! I've only tried this once... and it really did motivate my son to get those stickers. I think the promise of a reward might have been a little too intangible to him. To see it right there, within his reach, and only to be able to attain it by working hard to please me.. seemed to motivate him to follow directions. Maybe it is manipulative, yes. I'm not sure... but it worked. Just my two cents. I don't use that ploy often... but it did work when I tried it.

Melissa and Tammy Again: Ok.. about ear canals and speech. My son has very tiny ear canals, he always needs to have those tempanograms repeated over and over again.. and they never get a real reading. I took my son to an ENT who found his tiny ear canals completely blocked by ear wax. He did end up to also have mild hearing impairment. The hearing aids helped his speech improve, but the first set we got were way too strong and made him retreat from lively situations (like groups of kids). He seemed introverted and overwhelmed. Finally, an audiologist suggested that he needed more sensitive, subtle amplification.. in a hearing aid that was quite a bit more expensive. We were skeptical, but took a chance. What a difference!! He stopped pulling off the hearing aids and hiding them! He became more outgoing and socialable. He did not withdraw from noisy groups of children. The Resound Hearing Aids were probably 30% more expensive than the Phonak ones, but it made a HUGE difference in his personality. I am VERY curious to know what the result is from Ryan's hearing test tomorrow. Tammy, did your daughter's attitude improve after she had her tonsils out? Did her sleep patterns change? I can't help but think that if my son is getting a poor night sleep every night of his life, what chance does he have of being alert and ready to learn and cooperate during the day? I often blame his stubborness on a bad night's sleep. I wonder if I'm making excuses for him? Our ENT had approved a sleep study for him, but then our insurance changed and I have to start the process all over again!! darn it!

Tammy and Melissa: Wow, your messages really stuck a chord with me. I think there is a real connection between the things you are describing and some common traits related to down syndrome. My son is nine years old. He also wakes up many times during the night.. and yes! sort of chews on his thumb as well. His sleep is very fitfull (is that a word?)... I get the feeling he never really gets a good night's sleep. I think this is DEFINITELY related to some kind of sleep apnea type condition... and definitely affects his temperment during the day (stubborness, enthusiam for learning and cooperating). There are so many variables, of course. Melissa, my son also made throaty growling sort of sounds at that age. A few basic sign language motions helped a lot (more, all done, eat, sleep, drink)... and also when he got hearing aids at age three.. those sounds disappeared and his communication improved tremendously. Gosh, there was so much more I wanted to say, I need to look back at your messages to remind myself!

Great big hugs to you and your family I will continue to pray for little Cassidy !I am so glad to hear everything went good!I never had to go through that my son did not have the heart problems .I admire you for staying so strong for Cassidy!God Bless you and may Cassidy succeed in all she does.((((Hugs)))) You may e-mail me anytime you would like . Melissa Mom To Ryan ds 11-20-96 ps. and is one of the 4 most loved kids in the world I have 3 others!

I just wanted to thank everyone for there prayers for Cassidy with her heart surgery!We just got home and even though it was a larger than normal procedure shes doing great!! She has totally abandoned the bottle tho and that worries us but she is sucking on her pacifier and they say it is quite common for them to give up the bottle after heart surgery, so hopefully it will be just a matter of time. I must say, Childrens Hospital is amazing! I can't believe all the things they can do on these little hearts.Thanks Again,Julie

I have an 8 year old daughter with ds. When she was youngershe had a bad problem with choking. We found out it was becauseher (sp?) toncils were lying on the back of her tongue. Theywere way to large for her tiny throat. We had them remove andthat put an end to her choking. All along our family doctorwas telling us that her toncils were fine and not to big butI took her to a nose and throat specialist and he said he had never seen toncils that large and scheduled to have themremoved asap. She has always made a noise when she sleeps-it seems to be when she is half in and out of sleep, it is kindof like a moaning, but she chews on her thumb while she ismaking the noise. I just figure it is her own little thingshe does to comfort herself. I am having a problem withher behavior. She is so stubborn and wants control. Is any-one else having a behavior problem with their child? If sohow do you fix it?

I am a 28 year old single mother of an 8 year old with ds andI am having a problem with her behavior. She is sooo stubbornand totally refuses to listen some times. I am at my witts endand Im not sure what to do with her. Does anyone out there havethe same problem as me. Also, I would love to find out if there isanything in my area for support groups or if anyone has a ds childin my area ? (Cortland, Niles, Warren OHio)

My son is 25 months with ds and he still chokes alot onsome foods he has a mouth full of teeth and his therapist says he has very good musle tone in his jaw and and mouth!He can eat most foods but he still cant eat cookies real well sometimes he can choke on the simplest things like bread!He has always been on charts developementaly for ds and he is really doing well in everyother area of developement he is starting to really say some words about 10 and is getting agravated that we don't understand the rest.Does anyone that has a child with ds know if this is common ?Can it be a sign of an undetected ear infection?He makes funny throaty noises alot like ahhhahhhahhh well I tried to discribe it he also wakes up at night and does it but when I take him to his ped. she says I can't see in his ear canal so he is scheduled for a hearing exam on Friday 01-08-99 I am hoping everything turns out ok as far as I know he has never had an ear infection but I guess it could have gone undetected!Any info will be appriciated!Thanks Ryan's mom Melissa

I have a daughter with DS. She is 14 yrs. old. We are having a problems with elevated liver enzyemes. Has anyone else experienced this with your child? Your info is appreciated!

Lucy-I to have my son on nutrivene-d he is 25 months and started on it at 3 months and he to as been pretty healthy his pediatrician can't believe hes only been on an antibiotic once and that was when he was 2 months and had the RSV virus!Feel free to e-mail me if you would like.Or anyone who would like to ask questions or chat!

kim & melissa, amanda my 2yr old has been on nutrivene-d vitamin therapy since the day we brought her home. i have noticed that she is much less likely to get sick than other downs children her age.. she is also less sick than her two brothers and her sister.if you type in nutrivene -d on your search brouser you can pull up alot of info. or you can also e-mail me directly and i will send you all the info i have gatherd.,.also melissa i would love to get on an e-mail talk with you and anyone else who wants to talk...i have tried to use these live talk pages but noone is ever there when i get on...

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